Interview Keisuke Nakamura | "Newness" is born in circulation. New Challenges for SKWAT

From Aoyama to Kameari, a new challenge for SKWAT

－－First of all, please tell us about this SKWAT ART CENTRE. You are preparing for the opening of the museum, what kind of project is it?

We call the gaps in society “VOID” and the concept of “SKWAT” is to change value there. Originally, we occupied an idle facility in the city and started it as an activity to open it to the public. The new base is SKWAT ART CENTRE.

－－You moved from Aoyama to this Kameari in the summer of 2023. What was the background?

The building we were based in Minamiaoyama is a prime location in Tokyo, so the rent was high, and there were no tenants for a long time. At that time, SKWAT was vacant under the mission of increasing the value of the building so that tenants can enter because of the bad appearance that the Tokyo Olympics will be held soon. I decided to rent a vacant property for a three-month contract. We have created a book store designed by the overseas art book distributor "twobooks", an experimental shop for the French brand "LEMAIRE", and a space called "PARK" based on the concept of "indoor park", which produced good results in various aspects such as attracting customers and topicality, so I asked you to stay here a little more. The Olympics were postponed and the contract continued to be renewed, but it was decided that some famous brands would enter.

－－You increased the value of the place and played a role.

That's right. So, I wonder if we have finished what we need to do in the middle of the city. So when I was looking for a place to be the next base, I heard that JR East Urban Development is planning to redevelop one station section from Ayase Station to Kameari Station, and I went to see the underpass. I sympathized with the plan itself to create a highly public place like a park under the overpass, and I was very interested in it, but I thought that we might be able to make more meaningful proposals from a different perspective, so I discussed with JR East Urban Development to create a cultural facility that is open to art-based cities.

－－What kind of proposal did you make?

JR East Urban Development Co., Ltd. had the same idea, but if there was a track, the city would be divided by "the other side" or "the other side" of the track. We proposed how to use a more open space with the aim of increasing the ease of migration in the area so that the traffic there is as much as possible. Specifically, we plan to create a "gathering place" based on art, design, architecture, music and food. At that time, I was conscious of the approach of changing the interior center without changing this scenery as much as possible, rather than breaking the building. Suddenly, changing the scenery can make the city feel uncomfortable. Surprisingly, it's not legally easy to use the large space under the overpass interestingly.

－－When you hear about development, I think some people have the image of changing the landscape of the city more and more, but vice versa. The current DAIKEI MILLS office is located on the 2nd floor, but in a space surrounded by steel frames and concrete, vibrations are transmitted from the ceiling every time a train passes. What kind of hurdles are legal?

According to the current construction method, it is not possible to touch the skeleton under the elevated structure (the skeleton that structurally supports the entire building), so the mainstream method is to insert another building and start it. However, since this is a building from the old building law, it is safe unless the existing building is broken. With that in the opposite hand, we negotiated with JR East Urban Development in the direction of utilizing this huge space instead of breaking it. This leads to the story of "circulation," but "Let's try it once with the idea of how to upcycle what we have now." The JR East Urban Development Team also agreed with a development approach that was different from the previous scrap and build, and the direction was finalized.

－－Utilizing existing ones is the approach that Mr. Nakamura is good at.

You have the strength of time. Even if nothing is unusual, it seems that after 100 years, it is extremely valuable. It was also built several decades ago, but it would be better to take over and transform what was made at that time than to break it all and add a new prefab. In the future, it will look even better. That's the way of thinking.

Air feeling and Cart-Covern syndrome

－－I would like to ask you where Mr. Nakamura's methodology comes from, but what kind of child did you have in your childhood? I'm from Shizuoka, right?

I grew up in Hamamatsu, Shizuoka. The house was in between Lake Hamana and the mountains, always playing with nature. I'm really a country.

－－What about culture?

Yeah. I don't get that kind of information. But I was playing classical piano from the age of three to the third year of high school. I'm going to the contest. My siblings were all playing the piano, and I saw my two older sisters going on the path of music, so when I was little, I was vaguely thinking that I wanted to go on the path of music. When I was in high school, I gave up because I knew that there was a top. But at home, somebody was always playing the piano, so classical music may be at the base of me. I like List, Rafmaninov, and of course I like Chopin.

－－Did you study architecture at university?

No, I went to London's beauty college, but I have never studied architecture. However, my grandfather was an architect, and my parents' house had an architectural office, so the distance from architecture was short. I was asked to do the design work when I was doing VACANT in Harajuku. I just built an office because I need it to get a job. That's why I have a strong feeling that I'm doing art rather than architecture.

－－Are there any architects or creators who were influenced by them?

I was impressed by Peter Zundoo for architecture. The buildings he designed were also quite round in Western Europe. I don't like minimalism so much, but for some reason I was fascinated by the minimal space of Zundoo. I read books such as "Atmosphere (Atomosphere)" and got a point. He also faces space with an approach that digs up memories of individuals and land, rather than architecture. When I was a child, I was trying to express the feeling of holding the doorknob at the back entrance of my grandmother's house and the air feeling of classical music in space. I feel that I am influenced by my way of thinking rather than his design. Before that, I liked Nirvana very much in my childhood.

－－It's probably because of the reaction to the piano…？

That's right. I'm wearing a butterfly tie, wearing shorts, and playing the piano well, but the other side is Grunge. That's cool! That's right (laughs). I'm still going to be called Kart Coburn syndrome.

－－Is it a ruining type?

Is this really good when Monogoto starts to go well? Are you going on the right road? I'm worried about it, and I'm going to go on the thorny path (laughs).

Lightness that is easy to overwrite, created by temporary space

－－In 2022, SKWAT was working on a project called "4202122" as a floor renewal of Shibuya PARCO 4F. What was the offer for the renewal?

At first, why don't you do something as SKWAT in one section on the 4th floor? That's a suggestion. However, during the discussion, I was told that the real challenge was in the system, so I decided to design it from the “store opening system” in front of the store. In short, I wanted to create a system that would attract interesting people on that floor. When a tenant opens a new store, the hurdles are quite high due to various ties and restrictions. That's why I was wondering if I could design a way to provide new places that I haven't done in commercial facilities.

－－What is the height of the hurdles for opening stores, for example?

In a big place, first of all, financial aspects. Not only is the interior construction cost at the time of opening a store, but it is not well known, but we also have to consider the cost of removing it when leaving the store. In order to collect them, we had to open stores continuously for 3 to 5 years, and it was difficult for young brands and creators to open stores. In that case, the variability as a floor is low, making it difficult to talk to people who want to work together with PARCO interesting and want to work together. Also, every time the tenant changes and the interior changes, waste comes out, so there was also a problem in terms of sustainability.

－－What's the difference?

First of all, we thought about how to reduce initial costs in order to lower the hurdles of opening stores. It is the construction of a system that will ease the contract form. In terms of hardware, we decided to prepare a highly variable frame here (facility) in advance, based on the concept of "lightness that is easy to overwrite".

－－That is now the 4th floor of Shibuya PARCO. It's like a space between permanent and pop-up.

Pop-ups are good in terms of variability, but since you have to create a space from a quiet space, if you want to express your personality, the cost will increase. So rather than that, it will be a little color, but I decided that it would be better to set a frame in advance.

－－The pipe is covered with Toru Kase's graphics, but how did you decide on the visual aspect?

This time, I have a sheet attached to the pipe, but in fact there is also a change of value there. That's because, in general, these sheets are used as an option when there is no budget. Wood grain sheet or concrete-style sheet. I thought it would be possible to change the perspective of sheet building materials by having them graphic design as a new original sheet.

－－On the 4th floor, benches are attached to the aisle side from the pipe surrounding the store. Oh, I'm very grateful as a guest because I can take a break when I'm tired of walking while shopping. Where did you come up with that idea?

I mentioned that the concept of SKWAT is to find “VOID” and change value, but there is another thing that I value. That means that we release the space after we occupy (squat). That's why I wanted to create an interactive space where people who could not enter the store can use and get involved. However, according to the common sense of commercial facilities, it is taboo that the bench pops out from the lease part to the shared (passage) part. That's why PARCO allowed me a lot (laughs).

－－The aisle is an inviolable area, isn't it?

There is an invisible wall at the boundary between the exclusive part and the common part, and it usually seems to be careful if it jumps out of it even in the air or even 1 mm from it. In this project, it was a challenge for both us and PARCO to blur the boundaries (lease lines).

Circulation is a new design method

－－I feel that temporary spaces like "4202122" are more sustainable than permanent pop-ups, as well as permanent ones, considering waste.

I think so. However, it is the result of the pursuit of new things. If you want to create something new in the present age, it would be difficult if you don't have a "circulation" perspective. For example, I think that the circulation is to create a space where customers can interact with each other while baton-touching the time of existing things as I mentioned earlier.

－－I see.

Rather than researching and developing sustainable materials, SKWAT approaches “existing” and “current situation” to add some essence to them little by little. In the Aoyama era, we had a participatory exhibition called “Materials Matters”, which was a project in which we had visitors take the samples of building materials that had accumulated at DAIKEI MILLS (in place of discarding them), and we recorded how they used them differently, and later released the results of the “value change” to the public at a later date. For me, it's also a "circulation" of things and thoughts. It is said that consciousness will become more and more. I feel that there is "newness" beyond that process. What this means is that, rather than aiming for visual newness, if we look back at the ideas and soft parts in front of it, we believe that hardware and output will naturally be new as a by-product. If you get inspiration from the existing ones there and explore what is the best while drawing out its uniqueness, the point is that something that can only be born there. To do so, the concept of "circulation" is one hint, and even more extreme, circulation may be a new design method.

－－It's the opposite of scratch-and-build.

That's right. But we don't deny all scrap and builds. That's why there's a pattern that works well. But I think balance is necessary.

－－This is especially true in Tokyo, but the entrance and exit of stores and the change of landscape are fast. So, I don't think it's easy to establish a cyclical approach.

It is true that Tokyo is a city with very strong commercial aspects. But I think the speed of pursuing these new things is also interesting in Tokyo. Rather than covering it there, it is necessary to face it with the uniqueness of Tokyo. In Tokyo, the commercial aspect is the current situation, so I think we have to look at it. In addition, it is often said that art is incompatible with commerce, but if commercial is a characteristic of the city where you are, it is better to face it and create a work that captures the time. Doesn't it mean that you're going to think about what you can do with the current situation?

－－You have a consistent attitude of creating based on what is already there.

It's a simple story that accepts the current situation and makes it better from there.

Interaction is born from "unfinished"

－－Is there anything else that is valued in the activities of DAIKEI MILLS and SKWAT?

As I mentioned earlier, the idea of "interaction" is also important. The general design is a one-way relationship in which the construction company forms what the designer designed and used by the client, but I always think that there is no way to do that. For example, when renovating an old building, ask them to point out the points to be repaired from the viewpoint of the construction side, mix the repair agent with color powder, visualize the traces repaired by craftsmen, and make use of it, and it is sublimated into a stupid design.

－－It feels like arrows are coming and going between the designer and the construction company.

In short, I think the hierarchy that the person who designed the design is the greatest is different. If designers and designers stand too much, people who actually run the shop don't feel like they're their place or think they'll not move the designed things. Interaction is to break that hierarchy. I am conscious of creating a space that everyone can think of as their own place.

－－In interviews, the word "unfinished" is often used, but is that the condition necessary to create interaction?

That's right. I think there are various methods, but if you try to make something systematic to make it easier for everyone to use, it will become a rule and it will be bound instead. I want to avoid it as much as possible. Also, there are unfinished or incomplete beauty. That's exactly the case here (SKWAT ART CENTRE), but it's close to my home feeling that I don't make a finished shape. I wonder if I can change the primitive feeling of being cozy and being there, even though it is scattered around my bed in my house. In that it is incomplete but has strength as a design, the artist's atelier is very cool. I don't think it's because that charm is properly prepared, but because there is a cohesive world view while various things with reality are scattered in a lot.

－－It's certainly not something that can be made systematically (planned).

I am conscious of daring to create a place incompletely. When I talked a little more, the space of skeleton is increasing in both commercial facilities and houses now, but I think there are "skeleton" and "skeleton-style". The two are similar and non-common. If the frame of the building is dared to peel off or the wiring is too clean, it becomes "skeleton-like". What I value is, unlike that, how much I can face the original state when I peel it off. I think the game is how to tune in different places and enhance the overall goodness, as much as possible without modifying the condition as much as possible. The wiring in this room is not very clean in terms of route, but I would like to allow this sloppyness. I would like to value such a relationship that can be supplemented with others.

－－I wonder if it's a coincidence.

That's right. If there is a gap, I think that the people involved can feel that it is good to relax, not just the back muscles. I'm very conscious of that kind of energy.

－－I think that "circulation" and the approach of SKWAT are very important to society today. What do you think are the perspectives you need for architects, those involved in urban development, and ultimately, what do you think?

Do you see things from multiple angles? Every thing has multiple values, and even if it is common, you can see a completely different aspect if you change your perspective. If you can do that, you can change value, and you can make rich choices from your own perspective. You don't have to use the situation and things around you as excuses, the point is how positive you can think of negative things. It would be fun to think about things from a multifaceted perspective. My life changes.